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Palestine In My Thoughts

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Jonnyboy View Drop Down
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  Quote Jonnyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Palestine In My Thoughts
    Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 16:11
A thought for all the innocents being killed in this vile war, and a thought for all the children killed by Israel.

International condemnation of Israel is needed, and more importantly the withdrawal of funds from the USA.

I'll be sitting waiting for hell to freeze over and the pigs to fly in a get me.
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  Quote Hatshepsut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 21:39
Jonny, I couldn't agree with you more.
 
Perhaps our hope lies with the moderates. I read this thoughtful piece from Rabbi Michael Lerner earlier this week in The Times, which just about sums it up for me, and makes sensible proposals to stop this endless violence.
 
 
I wish Barack Obama would do and say more, as well. I do understand that his hands are tied to a certain extent until after the inauguration but, still, I was disappointed...
 
 
"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time." - Robin Williams
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  Quote Catwoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 22:11
My thoughts are with the families who are being effected by what is happening in Israel.  This is a war which goes back to just after World War 2, things need to be done to call a Cease Fire.
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  Quote James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 22:29
This isn't going to end permanently while Israel remains as paranoid as it is. They're losing support rapidly and rightly so.

Barack Obama said he'd have plenty to say after Jan 20th so fingers crossed he withdraws support for Israel quickly.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 22:52
A great column by Rabbi Lerner - thanks for posting the link Hats.

My heart goes out to the innocent civilians on both sides.  It's way past time that a proper solution was found to end the malevolent stalemate that has existed between Israel and Palestine for pretty much as long as I can remember.
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  Quote Hatshepsut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2009 at 23:39
Sadly, the conflict goes back even further. I read all the online comments on Rabbi Lerner's article and, sure enough, somebody brought up the fact that this has been going on since the time of Ishmael and Isaac.
 
It's tough to get round a table and hammer out a peace deal when the discussions inevitably hark back to who did what to whom thousands of years ago. It's not dissimilar to the conflict in Northern Ireland, when discussions kept being dragged back to the Battle of the Boyne (a relatively recent conflict of 1690 but one which is persistently commemorated in those bloody Orange marches).
 
One of the most important of Rabbi Lerner's recommendations is that religious schools - on both sides - should stop preaching the hatred of the past, which just poisons the future. History teachers have a fearsome responsibility, don't you think, Pez?
 
"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time." - Robin Williams
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2009 at 00:49
Originally posted by Hatshepsut

History teachers have a fearsome responsibility, don't you think, Pez?
They sure do Hats.  Sadly what they are allowed to teach, and how they teach it, is closely prescribed by politicians in order to "protect national interests" - not only in Middle Eastern states and other places that we in the West consider tyrannical, but right here too.

It's only once students get to undergrad level that they're allowed to think for themselves and form individual opinions on events, and even then they're heavily influenced by the choices of secondary materials used for history degree courses.

Wrong in so many respects and, as you say Hats, perpetuates xenophobia, hatred and distrust.
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  Quote Jonnyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2009 at 10:43
another good article here:

Why bombing Ashkelon is the most tragic irony


Israel is a classic case of bullied becoming bully. They have created ghettos within the west bank penning Palestinians inside their towns and not allowed to move about in their own land. Gaza has had it the worst with Israel not allowing food, medical equipment or power into the area for years. I have been over there myself on a few occasions and it is easy to see how the fundementalists are created, when you are treated like dirt on a daily basis and you see no alternative and no way forward, when you civil liberties are taken away and you are tormented and abused every moment of your life...when that happens than despertion takes over. I in no way condone hamas or any extremist, but I can see how it happens.

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  Quote Bren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2009 at 15:31
My father's views exactly Jon, he has always been outspoken re Palestine having in the Second World War being involved at 18 years old at the relief of Belsen (something you don't get over) to having friends killed at the hands of the very same people they freed in Palestine 6 months later.  Most of the all the funding and backing of Israel by the USA needs to be looked at - the US would not condone the actions that have gone on in Gaza by any other state yet they say and do nothing re Israel.

If Israel continues to ignore what the UN says - then surely they should be suspended or something?
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  Quote Jonnyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2009 at 16:44
Ā§Hopefully Obama will do something about it
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2009 at 21:37
Utterly shameful that the UN isn't even threatening sanctions against Israel.  Great comment in that article Jon.
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  Quote Hatshepsut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2009 at 11:56

Thanks for posting that article, Jonny - Robert Fisk is extremely knowledgeable about the Middle East and is the finest writer on the subject that I know.

It is utterly shameful that the UN is toothless when it comes to Israel - Israel has ignored the many resolutions that have previously been passed condemning its actions and not one has been enforced. Yet just look at how quick the US and UK are to leap into action when it suits them (cf the invasion of Iraq).

What I find bewildering is that it's so counter-productive. As has been pointed out, desperation fuels the terrorist cause. Why can't our political leaders see that? Isn't it blindingly obvious? If I remember rightly, Robert Fisk was once attacked and beaten up by Afghans when he was visiting the country; afterwards he said that he totally understood why he had been assaulted and that, if he were an Afghan, he'd have attacked himself (or words to that effect!).
 
What's needed is a bit of empathy. Or, failing that, Winnie-the-pooh diplomacy.
 
Erm, let me explain. Richard Danzig, a foreign policy adviser to Barack Obama, gave a speech last summer and started by quoting from the opening chapter of the book:
 
"Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming down stairs. But sometimes he thinks there really is another way if only he could stop bumping a minute and think about it."
 
Works for me - I just hope Barack Obama agrees.
 
 
"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time." - Robin Williams
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  Quote Catwoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2009 at 12:09
Originally posted by Hatshepsut

 
One of the most important of Rabbi Lerner's recommendations is that religious schools - on both sides - should stop preaching the hatred of the past, which just poisons the future. History teachers have a fearsome responsibility, don't you think, Pez?
 
 
When I was doing my History Coursework and we did about the Arab and Israeli Conflict and my history teacher said that everytime she taught this topic something would happen in the middle east.  She isn't teaching anymore.
 
 
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  Quote Jonnyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2009 at 13:10
The problem is that during national service the Israeli teenagers are trained to distrust, loath and hate arabs. Many had palastinian and arab fiends before service but willingly chant kill the arabs whilst bombing them afterwards... I heard this direct from a lad who had finished his national service the day before and was sitting in an air port wanting to "get as far away from this hell as possible" 
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  Quote veronica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2009 at 22:03
There is wrong doing on both sides and it is usually the innocents who suffer, however what is happening in Gaza is totally unforgivable in my opinion.
I don't see how they can say they are 'aiming' for Hamas targets, since when has a school been a haven for Hamas members
And like it or not they are the party who were elected by the people of Gaza.

The whole situation is sickening really.
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  Quote James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2009 at 01:33
Israel's approach seems akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut.

IMO there's no way they can justify pushing the Gaza population toward near malnutrition.
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